1	00:00:03:00	00:00:07:06

Managing your growth

means focusing on several aspects.



2	00:00:07:09	00:00:13:00

Taxes, for example. What changes

in taxes when you become a BV?



3	00:00:13:03	00:00:16:11

We will also discuss

the possibilities of hiring staff.



4	00:00:16:14	00:00:21:03

What type of employment suits

your business best and what would change?



5	00:00:21:06	00:00:23:08

And we will take a look at financing.



6	00:00:23:11	00:00:27:09

What types of financing are there

in the Dutch financing landscape?



7	00:00:27:12	00:00:31:05

We will discuss these topics with Johan

Laffra of the Chamber of Commerce



8	00:00:31:08	00:00:33:10

and our entrepreneurs Geta and Karim.



9	00:00:33:13	00:00:38:18

With these different legal structures,

there are different tax regulations.



10	00:00:38:21	00:00:41:00

How does that work differently?



11	00:00:41:03	00:00:44:17

I think for all legal entities



12	00:00:44:20	00:00:47:14

the one that you all have to work with

is the VAT.



13	00:00:47:17	00:00:50:23

In Dutch called the BTW,

the value added tax.



14	00:00:51:01	00:00:54:12

That's something that works

for every legal entity.



15	00:00:54:15	00:00:58:06

The main difference is

when it comes to income tax



16	00:00:58:09	00:01:00:20

versus the corporate tax.



17	00:01:00:23	00:01:05:12

That's the biggest difference

between the personal entities



18	00:01:05:15	00:01:07:23

and the legal structures.



19	00:01:08:01	00:01:11:09

Does anything change in these taxes

when you become a BV



20	00:01:11:12	00:01:13:11

compared to the other legal structures?



21	00:01:13:14	00:01:18:17

The one that isn't going to change is the

VAT. That works the same for all of them.



22	00:01:18:20	00:01:22:17

The biggest difference is that

once you have a one-man business



23	00:01:22:20	00:01:25:16

a general partnership

or a professional partnership



24	00:01:25:19	00:01:27:22

you pay income tax over all profit.



25	00:01:28:00	00:01:32:00

And the difference

with the legal entity, the BV



26	00:01:32:03	00:01:35:06

is that you'll be paying a salary



27	00:01:35:09	00:01:39:13

which should be what's normal in the market



28	00:01:39:16	00:01:42:12

but it needs to be at least 46.000 euros.



29	00:01:42:15	00:01:45:22

That's money

that you'll pay your income tax over.



30	00:01:46:00	00:01:51:00

But on top of that, if there's more profit,

you'll start paying your corporate tax.



31	00:01:51:03	00:01:52:23

And that's the biggest difference



32	00:01:53:01	00:01:58:01

between the personal entities

and the legal structures.



33	00:01:58:04	00:02:02:14

Does that mean that if I would choose

a BV, I would have to fill in two forms



34	00:02:02:17	00:02:05:09

both one for the income tax

and one for the corporate tax?



35	00:02:05:12	00:02:08:10

It's going to be in

two different tax systems, yes.



36	00:02:08:13	00:02:13:17

So it's in addition to

just the income tax as a sole proprietor.



37	00:02:13:20	00:02:15:20

Well, that's good to know at least.



38	00:02:15:23	00:02:19:20

Are there also tax reductions

that entrepreneurs can use?



39	00:02:19:23	00:02:24:19

Yes, those go for the one-man business

and the partnerships.



40	00:02:24:22	00:02:29:22

If you meet certain criteria, you're

entitled to all kinds of tax discounts.



41	00:02:30:00	00:02:34:19

Those discounts won't apply

if you have a legal structure.



42	00:02:34:22	00:02:40:14

That's normally the reason why your profit

needs to increase on an annual basis



43	00:02:40:17	00:02:46:24

before switching to a legal entity becomes 

interesting from a tax point of view.



44	00:02:47:02	00:02:51:03

So you would say that

becoming a BV in a tax point of view



45	00:02:51:06	00:02:54:13

would be a disadvantage,

but especially if you're making more profit



46	00:02:54:16	00:02:57:05

those will weigh up against each other.

-That's true.



47	00:02:57:08	00:03:01:13

Are there any other deductions for the

other legal structures apart from the BV



48	00:03:01:16	00:03:05:15

that these entrepreneurs

could benefit from before?



49	00:03:05:18	00:03:10:10

I'd say that those are not

part of the actual legal structure



50	00:03:10:13	00:03:12:00

but it depends on your activity.



51	00:03:12:03	00:03:14:18

Once you start doing something



52	00:03:14:21	00:03:18:13

there might be subsidies

or research and development things



53	00:03:18:16	00:03:21:19

that you can use for your business.



54	00:03:21:22	00:03:26:04

But those don't solely

apply to just the legal form.



55	00:03:26:07	00:03:29:20

It has to do with

what it is that you're doing.



56	00:03:29:23	00:03:31:20

That sounds logical.

-OK, that's good.



57	00:03:31:23	00:03:34:23

In that case, let's start

talking about hiring staff.



58	00:03:35:01	00:03:37:09

Geta, do you currently employ staff?



59	00:03:37:12	00:03:40:07

Yeah, we have a team of eight right now.



60	00:03:40:10	00:03:43:17

Well, that's the executives

and the office team.



61	00:03:45:15	00:03:49:08

Everyone is working on their own terms



62	00:03:50:10	00:03:54:01

because we're still

fundraising at this point.



63	00:03:54:04	00:03:58:05

We have people who we hired for zero hours



64	00:03:58:08	00:04:02:08

and then they get paid per job...



65	00:04:02:11	00:04:05:13

Well, number of hours they actually put in.



66	00:04:05:16	00:04:07:10

But then there are people who are full time



67	00:04:07:13	00:04:11:14

and they are very important to us

for growth.



68	00:04:11:17	00:04:16:05

And then there are people

who we deal with externally



69	00:04:16:08	00:04:18:19

and just do contract basis.



70	00:04:18:22	00:04:22:24

So you actually have quite a few

different ways of employment.



71	00:04:23:02	00:04:25:13

Karim, do you also have

these different ways of employment?



72	00:04:25:16	00:04:28:19

Essentially, we work mainly

with freelancers.



73	00:04:28:22	00:04:32:05

So writers, editors,

marketeers, essentially.



74	00:04:32:08	00:04:37:00

And no one is employed by us.

We just have freelance contracts with them.



75	00:04:37:03	00:04:40:05

I'm sure that has its advantages

and different structures.



76	00:04:40:08	00:04:43:04

So maybe, Johan, you could

enlighten us in the theory.



77	00:04:43:07	00:04:45:24

What kind of different types

of employment are there in the Netherlands?



78	00:04:46:02	00:04:49:20

There are so many ways to employ people.



79	00:04:49:23	00:04:52:20

There's a scenario for each and every one.



80	00:04:52:23	00:04:57:14

But I think the biggest difference is: You

can hire someone as an employee directly



81	00:04:57:17	00:05:00:21

so put them on your payroll

and then start working from there.



82	00:05:00:24	00:05:05:01

I hear you saying something about

zero hour contracts, which is fine too.



83	00:05:05:04	00:05:10:19

You'll still be their employer, but

the amount of hours worked is a variable.



84	00:05:10:22	00:05:14:19

That's an option. You can hire people

through temping agencies



85	00:05:14:22	00:05:18:24

through payroll organisations,

and you can even hire independents



86	00:05:19:02	00:05:23:05

like freelancers or ZZP people.



87	00:05:23:08	00:05:25:10

That's all possible.



88	00:05:25:13	00:05:27:24

So you'll be looking at

whatever works for you



89	00:05:28:02	00:05:30:09

and there's probably an option for that.



90	00:05:30:12	00:05:32:17

That's what entrepreneurs

should always keep in mind.



91	00:05:32:20	00:05:34:09

What works best for me?



92	00:05:34:12	00:05:39:09

Maybe that's a great intro for the

next statement I have for entrepreneurs.



93	00:05:39:12	00:05:44:06

The statement is: It is better to have

fixed term contracts than flexible ones.



94	00:05:44:09	00:05:47:01

And I feel you might both

have a different answer to that.



95	00:05:47:04	00:05:49:09

But, Karim, let's start with you.



96	00:05:49:12	00:05:53:00

I'm a big fan of flexibility, so



97	00:05:53:03	00:05:56:05

you know my answer.

-I figured that would be the case.



98	00:05:56:08	00:06:00:08

Will that differ, maybe,

when you become a BV in the future?



99	00:06:00:11	00:06:02:24

Yes and no. We just need to see

how the growth plan goes



100	00:06:03:02	00:06:05:00

and what resources and skills we'll need.



101	00:06:05:03	00:06:07:06

It's all about what's available

readily on the market.



102	00:06:07:09	00:06:10:22

So I can imagine that we will need that.



103	00:06:11:00	00:06:15:02

As the company grows, we will need

new skill sets in the business.



104	00:06:15:05	00:06:16:18

That sounds logical.



105	00:06:16:21	00:06:20:13

And Geta, I believe from your story,

you had several types.



106	00:06:22:20	00:06:26:13

It really depends on who we're talking with



107	00:06:26:16	00:06:31:19

and exactly what's the type

of work that they are putting in.



108	00:06:31:22	00:06:36:11

Like, for example, when there are



109	00:06:36:14	00:06:38:23

things related to intellectual property



110	00:06:39:01	00:06:42:19

because we have a lot of innovation

to what we're doing



111	00:06:42:22	00:06:47:00

so there are probably

rigid terms that we would impose.



112	00:06:47:03	00:06:50:12

But on the other hand,

having flexibility in our collaboration



113	00:06:50:15	00:06:54:09

with anyone who'd work with us,

I think it's pretty important



114	00:06:54:12	00:06:58:00

because you can't just be

a woodpecker about this.



115	00:06:58:03	00:07:01:17

Especially when you're talking about IP,

it's really important, of course.



116	00:07:01:20	00:07:04:24

So there's not one

which you particularly would prefer.



117	00:07:05:02	00:07:07:15

No, I mean, it's situational.



118	00:07:07:18	00:07:11:09

You have to adapt to the situation,

to the task at hand.



119	00:07:11:12	00:07:14:20

So when you started Babymoon,

in the beginning



120	00:07:14:23	00:07:17:18

did you start with the flexible ones

or the fixed term ones?



121	00:07:17:21	00:07:23:02

When I started, I started with

exploring where I landed



122	00:07:23:05	00:07:25:12

let's put it this way.

And it took a while.



123	00:07:25:15	00:07:30:02

At that stage, there was a lot of



124	00:07:30:05	00:07:34:13

research and development done,

by me mostly.



125	00:07:34:16	00:07:39:17

But then when I had to get people

to do something for the company



126	00:07:39:20	00:07:44:17

then it would be a short term,

like task-based agreement.



127	00:07:44:20	00:07:47:00

And it was limited.



128	00:07:47:03	00:07:51:20

Now, at the point when we have people

on an ongoing basis



129	00:07:51:23	00:07:56:00

as part of the team and doing

the Monday meetings and all of that



130	00:07:56:03	00:07:59:08

with a stable team, it's a bit different.



131	00:08:00:22	00:08:03:08

But still we keep the flexibility



132	00:08:03:11	00:08:07:09

and we still have people from

outside the company also providing input.



133	00:08:07:12	00:08:13:09

So right now, it's a matter of

managing what's on the inside



134	00:08:13:12	00:08:18:02

and then all those

satellite supporters that we have.



135	00:08:18:05	00:08:20:21

It sounds like a colourful bunch together.



136	00:08:20:24	00:08:23:24

Do you have any advice

for the entrepreneurs at home



137	00:08:24:02	00:08:27:18

how they could choose

what would best suit their company?



138	00:08:27:21	00:08:31:21

I would think: Just to know exactly



139	00:08:31:24	00:08:34:16

the requirements they have

for the people they hire



140	00:08:34:19	00:08:40:01

and based on those requirements,

adapt the way they hire them.



141	00:08:40:04	00:08:41:19

I think that's good advice.



142	00:08:41:22	00:08:45:22

It's best to know

what you want and upfront.



143	00:08:46:00	00:08:49:01

So then maybe a quick

theoretical question for Johan again.



144	00:08:49:04	00:08:54:00

Can a sole proprietor also hire staff?

-Yes, that's possible.



145	00:08:54:03	00:08:57:07

Is that possible in any legal structure?



146	00:08:57:10	00:09:00:03

The sole proprietor

only says something about



147	00:09:00:06	00:09:01:23

the number of owners

of the actual business.



148	00:09:02:01	00:09:05:23

So there's going to be one owner. As a 

partnership you'll have multiple owners



149	00:09:06:01	00:09:07:21

as a legal entity, both can apply.



150	00:09:07:24	00:09:11:10

But it only has to do with ownership



151	00:09:11:13	00:09:14:06

and both can have employees



152	00:09:14:09	00:09:17:21

in all scenarios that we just mentioned.



153	00:09:17:24	00:09:21:19

I can imagine when you actually

employ these people on fixed terms



154	00:09:21:22	00:09:24:21

it will probably

have financial consequences.



155	00:09:24:24	00:09:28:19

Could you tell us a bit more about that?

-Once you hire someone



156	00:09:28:22	00:09:31:07

then they become your employee.



157	00:09:31:10	00:09:35:05

At that point, you need to

set up an administration.



158	00:09:35:08	00:09:40:14

There are payroll taxes that need to

be done, that need to be set in motion.



159	00:09:40:17	00:09:44:01

For some, it's fine to do it yourself.



160	00:09:44:04	00:09:47:04

I hear a lot of people saying that

now I start working with personnel



161	00:09:47:07	00:09:50:19

the first thing I'm going to do is

hire myself a bookkeeper or an accountant



162	00:09:50:22	00:09:54:07

to make sure that payroll taxes

are taken care of the way it should be.



163	00:09:54:10	00:09:57:19

But yeah, in the end



164	00:09:57:22	00:10:03:20

you'll have to deal with employer stuff.



165	00:10:03:23	00:10:06:09

You touch upon

a really important point there.



166	00:10:06:12	00:10:09:02

Because of course there are many

regulations and rules around that.



167	00:10:09:05	00:10:12:13

So what would you say

are the most important



168	00:10:12:16	00:10:14:09

employment contract terms and conditions



169	00:10:14:12	00:10:16:06

in the Netherlands

that you should be aware of?



170	00:10:16:09	00:10:21:01

First off, it depends on the contract

that you're going to set up.



171	00:10:21:04	00:10:25:24

Will you be setting up someone for 40

hours a week for the rest of their life?



172	00:10:26:02	00:10:29:17

That's a different scenario than

when you start working with people



173	00:10:29:20	00:10:31:20

on a zero hour contract.



174	00:10:31:23	00:10:34:09

So that's the first thing

that you need to look at.



175	00:10:34:12	00:10:37:05

What kind of agreement

am I going to set up?



176	00:10:37:08	00:10:40:02

And once you do there's all kinds of stuff.



177	00:10:40:05	00:10:43:10

You'll be paying your employer wages

for your personnel



178	00:10:43:13	00:10:46:09

the salary that's required.



179	00:10:46:12	00:10:50:02

Most of the time,

people actually want to earn some money.



180	00:10:50:05	00:10:54:11

You'll be paying some benefits

on top of that, as an employer.



181	00:10:54:14	00:10:56:24

So that's important.



182	00:10:57:02	00:11:00:12

But there are all kinds of...



183	00:11:00:15	00:11:04:13

Well, as I just said, there's

the minimum wage to take care of.



184	00:11:04:16	00:11:08:16

You need to set something in place

for holidays and stuff like that.



185	00:11:08:19	00:11:13:04

There's pension. There are

insurances that need to be covered.



186	00:11:13:07	00:11:18:02

All those elements combined

make the official contract.



187	00:11:18:05	00:11:21:21

That's quite a bunch

of rules and regulations to be aware of.



188	00:11:21:24	00:11:25:08

Karim and Geta, any of these

Dutch rules that we have here



189	00:11:25:11	00:11:30:01

did they come as a surprise? Were they

different to what you were used to?



190	00:11:30:04	00:11:33:11

No.

-I worked here already for a few years



191	00:11:33:14	00:11:35:20

so there was a lot of stuff

that I knew about the system.



192	00:11:35:23	00:11:40:10

So it was a little bit easier for me

in that sense.



193	00:11:40:13	00:11:42:03

And for you, Geta?

-No.



194	00:11:42:06	00:11:47:14

These are all points that are valid

and relevant wherever you do business.



195	00:11:47:17	00:11:50:09

So you have to keep all of that in mind.



196	00:11:50:12	00:11:52:24

On the other hand, if I compare



197	00:11:53:02	00:11:58:12

just the paperwork processes here,

it is much less complicated



198	00:11:58:15	00:12:01:22

than in Eastern Europe, where I come from.



199	00:12:02:00	00:12:06:20

But then the fact that it's simplified



200	00:12:06:23	00:12:11:05

has to make you a bit more aware of

what you're putting into that contract.



201	00:12:11:08	00:12:15:24

Because when you're just winging it



202	00:12:16:02	00:12:19:02

that's not a good idea ever.



203	00:12:19:05	00:12:24:05

So at times, it's actually good

to have the possibility to have an adviser



204	00:12:24:08	00:12:28:12

to ask someone for their professional input



205	00:12:28:15	00:12:32:08

if you feel that you're

not qualified well enough



206	00:12:32:11	00:12:35:18

to build the contract yourself.



207	00:12:35:21	00:12:39:15

Because sometimes you can just

not be aware of some aspects



208	00:12:39:18	00:12:42:21

and then that can bite you later on.



209	00:12:42:24	00:12:45:23

It's good that you mention it.

Because just to sort of close this off:



210	00:12:46:01	00:12:49:10

Are there any other aspects

that an entrepreneur should know



211	00:12:49:13	00:12:51:05

when working with staff, Johan?



212	00:12:51:08	00:12:54:07

I'd say always start at the beginning.



213	00:12:54:10	00:12:58:03

As already mentioned

by our two guests today:



214	00:12:58:06	00:13:01:14

What is it that you're looking for?



215	00:13:01:17	00:13:07:16

If you have a very clear picture

of what the future is going to look like



216	00:13:07:19	00:13:11:20

it's going to be much easier

to hire someone directly



217	00:13:11:23	00:13:14:02

for a longer period.



218	00:13:14:05	00:13:18:09

So look at the coming months



219	00:13:18:12	00:13:21:01

maybe the first one, two years.



220	00:13:21:04	00:13:23:24

See where you're planning on going.

And based on that



221	00:13:24:02	00:13:26:22

you can make the right choice

regarding your staff.



222	00:13:27:00	00:13:32:10

So have a clear picture.

It applies to every segment today.



223	00:13:32:13	00:13:35:11

Have a clear picture

of where you want to go.



224	00:13:35:14	00:13:38:24

Think about it and have a clear picture.

And then you can start with your staff.



225	00:13:39:02	00:13:43:02

And I can imagine you have staff

and your employees.



226	00:13:43:05	00:13:45:16

They have to work somewhere.

Do you have an office space, Geta?



227	00:13:45:19	00:13:47:24

Yes, we do have an office space.

I'm very excited about that



228	00:13:48:02	00:13:51:12

because we moved to the office

just a few months back.



229	00:13:51:15	00:13:55:13

So it's really exciting

that the people can come.



230	00:13:55:16	00:14:00:11

There is this point that a big part

of our team works remotely



231	00:14:00:14	00:14:02:12

because they're not located

in the Netherlands.



232	00:14:02:15	00:14:07:21

We have people in Switzerland, in Tanzania,

in Moldova. So it's pretty international.



233	00:14:07:24	00:14:10:16

How did you find them, actually,

if they're from all over the world?



234	00:14:10:19	00:14:14:19

It took a while.

-Did you use LinkedIn?



235	00:14:17:01	00:14:21:05

Some people, yes.

Someone actually I found on LinkedIn.



236	00:14:21:08	00:14:24:20

With others it was just a matter of



237	00:14:24:23	00:14:28:09

engaging the networks that I have.



238	00:14:28:12	00:14:31:16

So, well,

me and then the other people involved.



239	00:14:31:19	00:14:35:11

And it doesn't have to be

LinkedIn necessarily.



240	00:14:35:14	00:14:39:05

A network is a network.

It's just human connection.



241	00:14:39:08	00:14:42:02

So that's the biggest part, probably.

A good network.



242	00:14:42:05	00:14:44:04

And through that, find the right employees.



243	00:14:44:07	00:14:47:13

Is that the same way you do it,

Karim, with your freelancers?



244	00:14:47:16	00:14:52:06

In some way, yes. The thing is,

we already have a huge following.



245	00:14:52:09	00:14:56:06

I mean we have close to 110,

115,000 followers



246	00:14:56:09	00:14:58:15

that's expats living and working

in the Netherlands.



247	00:14:58:18	00:15:02:02

So for us to recruit talent,

we just use our own network.



248	00:15:02:05	00:15:04:20

Already people come to us and solicit us.



249	00:15:04:23	00:15:07:22

Hey, can I write for you?

Can I work with you?



250	00:15:08:00	00:15:10:11

I've had that luxury, actually.

So that's great.



251	00:15:10:14	00:15:13:07

And I have some incredible people

on my team that I'm really proud of



252	00:15:13:10	00:15:16:01

and it's been really a nice journey.



253	00:15:16:04	00:15:18:05

So actually, once again

it comes down to a network.



254	00:15:18:08	00:15:21:14

But in this case, the fact

that everyone knows you.



255	00:15:21:17	00:15:24:16

'Luxeprobleem', as they say in Dutch.



256	00:15:24:19	00:15:27:23

Because, Geta, for you again

with hiring staff



257	00:15:28:01	00:15:31:06

what are the most important aspects

you look at when hiring a new person?



258	00:15:31:09	00:15:35:17

at this point of the development

of the company



259	00:15:35:20	00:15:40:21

we're definitely looking

at people who can deal with



260	00:15:40:24	00:15:42:20

uncertainty.



261	00:15:45:12	00:15:48:17

Uncertainty is not necessarily

a 2020 thing.



262	00:15:48:20	00:15:51:21

Especially when you're

dealing with start-ups and innovation.



263	00:15:51:24	00:15:55:19

We're looking at people

who can self-organise



264	00:15:55:22	00:15:59:16

and can be goal driven.



265	00:15:59:19	00:16:03:08

That's probably a common denominator

that we're looking at.



266	00:16:03:11	00:16:08:17

But then also having good background

in the specific work that they are doing.



267	00:16:08:20	00:16:12:07

That's important.

-That's really important.



268	00:16:12:10	00:16:16:11

Look what they've done and see if they

can build on from there in your company.



269	00:16:16:14	00:16:20:17

I believe we've got quite a lot of tips

for entrepreneurs regarding hiring.



270	00:16:20:20	00:16:23:01

So let's go to financing.



271	00:16:23:04	00:16:26:05

Could you elaborate on the types of

financing there are in the Netherlands?



272	00:16:29:02	00:16:32:19

You can ask friends and family



273	00:16:32:22	00:16:35:09

I think that's the easiest one.



274	00:16:35:12	00:16:38:21

There are micro credits

that you can apply for



275	00:16:38:24	00:16:41:19

there are bank loans, there are investors



276	00:16:41:22	00:16:45:11

that you can get into your business.



277	00:16:45:14	00:16:49:12

I'd say that for every scenario



278	00:16:49:15	00:16:55:08

there is a possibility

to gain money somewhere.



279	00:16:55:11	00:16:58:10

Quite a number of ways to get to financing.



280	00:16:58:13	00:17:01:24

Maybe it's interesting to have a statement

for our entrepreneurs again.



281	00:17:02:02	00:17:07:17

The statement this time is:

I recommend looking for funding.



282	00:17:07:20	00:17:11:04

It depends.

-Of course, it depends.



283	00:17:11:07	00:17:15:00

Because once you take

in financing from somewhere else



284	00:17:15:03	00:17:18:21

there are restrictions

and terms to that financing



285	00:17:18:24	00:17:22:10

to finding financing.

Do you actually need the funds?



286	00:17:22:13	00:17:26:17

Because raising money for the sake of

raising money without a purpose...



287	00:17:26:20	00:17:29:05

You see a lot of entrepreneurs,

they got their pitch deck really good



288	00:17:29:08	00:17:31:17

'I raise so much'.

But in reality



289	00:17:31:20	00:17:35:04

in my view,

the best investor is a paying customer.



290	00:17:35:07	00:17:36:19

That's very true.



291	00:17:36:22	00:17:40:17

Geta, how do you look at this?

-I agree with Karim completely.



292	00:17:43:02	00:17:46:19

Most of the times, it's best

to have the paying customer.



293	00:17:46:22	00:17:50:15

And then on the other hand,

when you have to deal with



294	00:17:50:18	00:17:54:16

like in my case, because we have

all the research and development



295	00:17:54:19	00:18:00:04

because we're dealing with electronic

textile and things that are like...



296	00:18:00:07	00:18:03:04

A physical product.

-Aside from being a physical product



297	00:18:03:07	00:18:07:18

it's also innovation and it's not

something that's common and widespread.



298	00:18:07:21	00:18:13:01

You have to fund the innovation

in various ways.



299	00:18:13:04	00:18:17:06

You have to figure out how to

build it, because it's a long process.



300	00:18:17:09	00:18:20:12

You have to build it, you have to

certify it, blah blah blah.



301	00:18:20:15	00:18:24:07

So the good opportunity here



302	00:18:24:10	00:18:28:10

is actually the possibility to fund R&D.



303	00:18:28:13	00:18:33:12

Because there are a bunch of subsidies

for that, a bunch of grant opportunities.



304	00:18:33:15	00:18:39:02

There are even loans that



305	00:18:39:05	00:18:42:20

are non-dilutive, so then you can still

keep the ownership of your company.



306	00:18:42:23	00:18:45:18

But then again, you can also

have access to venture capital



307	00:18:45:21	00:18:48:24

which is a useful tool.



308	00:18:49:02	00:18:52:07

But again, it depends very much

on what you're doing.



309	00:18:52:10	00:18:56:23

Because if I remember correctly, you are 

currently in the process of funding, right?



310	00:18:57:01	00:18:58:13

Yes.



311	00:18:58:16	00:19:01:14

How did you get to the choice

of which funding you were going for?



312	00:19:04:02	00:19:08:24

In my case, aside from the fact

that we have a lot of R&D in our company



313	00:19:09:02	00:19:11:12

I still have a physical product



314	00:19:11:15	00:19:15:09

that is already there

and ready for market release.



315	00:19:15:12	00:19:18:13

Because the innovative versions, well



316	00:19:18:16	00:19:23:12

they are all innovative,

but the electronic connected versions



317	00:19:23:15	00:19:27:18

they still have to go through

a lot of work.



318	00:19:27:21	00:19:30:24

But we have a product ready

for release to market



319	00:19:31:02	00:19:34:15

which means that I can have

my company income



320	00:19:34:18	00:19:38:11

and I can have paying clients

on top of the R&D part.



321	00:19:38:14	00:19:40:20

So that's a specific of my company



322	00:19:40:23	00:19:43:02

because I have colleagues

in the start-up world



323	00:19:43:05	00:19:47:17

who only have the R&D

for the first three years



324	00:19:47:20	00:19:50:12

and they can't generate income.



325	00:19:50:15	00:19:53:08

So you really looked for

R&D funding in the beginning.



326	00:19:55:03	00:19:59:10

We are looking for R&D funding

at this point as well.



327	00:19:59:13	00:20:02:21

But, so...

Yeah.



328	00:20:02:24	00:20:04:22

And how did you know

how to find this R&D funding?



329	00:20:05:00	00:20:09:24

Did you have a network again?

-That was a process. That was a challenge.



330	00:20:10:02	00:20:15:00

To be honest, I had three years

that were really, really financially tough.



331	00:20:15:03	00:20:18:01

We had to go through a very tight belt



332	00:20:18:04	00:20:21:13

let's put it this way, period.



333	00:20:21:16	00:20:25:07

The bootstrapping phase.

-Oh, yeah.



334	00:20:25:10	00:20:29:07

But then again, it wasn't easy



335	00:20:29:10	00:20:32:09

but on the other hand,

I think it's important



336	00:20:32:12	00:20:35:23

not to take on funding

before you know where you're going.



337	00:20:36:01	00:20:39:10

Before you can handle it as a company.



338	00:20:41:13	00:20:45:21

We had to explore,

so we took our moment there.



339	00:20:45:24	00:20:48:18

That's really good advice.

-But then again



340	00:20:48:21	00:20:54:19

we also took that time period

to explore the possibilities for funding



341	00:20:54:22	00:20:58:21

because here in the Netherlands,

it does give you a lot of opportunities



342	00:20:58:24	00:21:00:11

that are on a spectrum.



343	00:21:00:14	00:21:04:14

You can literally go from subsidies

to grants and loans.



344	00:21:04:17	00:21:07:17

So aside from just the money coming in



345	00:21:07:20	00:21:11:20

you have to also take into account: Do you

want to keep shares in your company?



346	00:21:11:23	00:21:15:15

Do you want to deal with other people

telling you how to run your business?



347	00:21:15:18	00:21:20:08

Do you want to put in an effort

and pay out loans?



348	00:21:20:11	00:21:24:07

So you have to have a funding strategy.

-Yes.



349	00:21:24:10	00:21:28:19

Not just like: Oh, there's cash,

let's go for it.



350	00:21:28:22	00:21:32:04

I can imagine that this strategy,

had to be written up in a written plan



351	00:21:32:07	00:21:34:18

for when you were looking for this funding.



352	00:21:34:21	00:21:37:08

You have to put things on paper



353	00:21:37:11	00:21:40:10

because when you go to

any funding organisation



354	00:21:40:13	00:21:44:13

they will not give you the money

just for the pretty eyes.



355	00:21:44:16	00:21:49:19

That's very true.

-You have to turn it into a document.



356	00:21:49:22	00:21:53:11

But before you put it on paper, you

have to know what you're putting on paper



357	00:21:53:14	00:21:58:20

and then you have to do the research

before that. So it's a backtracking thing.



358	00:21:58:23	00:22:00:23

Karim, do you recognise this situation?



359	00:22:01:01	00:22:04:01

Do you have entrepreneurs in your network

that are looking for funding like this?



360	00:22:04:04	00:22:07:14

Sure, we see it all the time. And what's

actually interesting in the Netherlands



361	00:22:07:17	00:22:12:14

there's actually advisers that can

go and help you raise money.



362	00:22:12:17	00:22:15:19

Of course they take a...

It's for a price, of course.



363	00:22:15:22	00:22:20:08

But that's a profession that's readily

available to help people raise money.



364	00:22:20:11	00:22:24:08

So we're quite lucky setting up

businesses in the Netherlands, actually.



365	00:22:24:11	00:22:27:11

Would you advise entrepreneurs

to also look at one of these coaches?



366	00:22:27:14	00:22:31:03

Yeah, absolutely. A hundred per cent.

-Definitely.



367	00:22:31:06	00:22:34:18

Johan, can you also relate

to the answers Geta and Karim just gave?



368	00:22:34:21	00:22:40:14

I was wondering, did any of you contact me?



369	00:22:40:17	00:22:45:20

Because we as an organisation

as well can help in the early process



370	00:22:45:23	00:22:49:10

of getting possibilities out



371	00:22:49:13	00:22:53:17

and maybe even

refer you in a certain direction.



372	00:22:53:20	00:22:57:03

But, yeah, I totally agree

with what was just told.



373	00:22:57:06	00:23:01:16

And again, keep an eye out

for what it is that you need.



374	00:23:01:19	00:23:03:16

I think that's a very valuable point.



375	00:23:03:19	00:23:08:13

It's not just about raising

as much capital as you want and can



376	00:23:08:16	00:23:13:11

but there's a need

and that needs to be clear.



377	00:23:13:14	00:23:16:17

Once you know that, you can decide

which way you're going to go.



378	00:23:16:20	00:23:21:07

That makes it a lot easier to write down

all the necessary paperwork.



379	00:23:21:10	00:23:24:04

So I totally agree.

-That's good to hear.



380	00:23:24:07	00:23:26:03

Then the advice can be followed.



381	00:23:26:06	00:23:28:12

We've been looking at

taxes for entrepreneurs



382	00:23:28:15	00:23:31:05

and what changes when you become a BV.



383	00:23:31:08	00:23:35:00

And we looked at the forms of employment

in the Netherlands



384	00:23:35:03	00:23:39:03

and the things that you should take

into account when you start hiring staff.



385	00:23:40:15	00:23:43:14

If you want to know more

about financing your business



386	00:23:43:17	00:23:47:10

we recommend you watch our webinar

on this specific topic.



387	00:23:47:13	00:23:51:08

There, you learn all about

the Dutch financial climate



388	00:23:51:11	00:23:54:05

and preparing to apply for Dutch funding



389	00:23:54:08	00:23:59:18

and more about the financing options in

the Netherlands we discussed briefly today.



390	00:23:59:21	00:24:04:05

You can find this

at our website business.gov.nl.



391	00:24:08:03	00:24:11:16

In the last part of this webinar,

we take a closer look